For Exodus, we use m/44'/60'/0'/0/0, we'll probably just stick with this since it's a solved problem. Please let me know if I'm missing anything.

@jprichardson Your path refers to the first address created, right? So in general m/44'/60'/0'/0/n for the nth wallet created. So your project is another data point favoring the standard BIP44 path.

From testing the Jaxx Chrome plugin I can verify that Jaxx uses the HD root m/44'/60'/0' which makes the single derived Ether address m/44'/60'/0'/0. So this is not really compliant with BIP44. Would be nice to have Jaxx on board with the standard since it's a high-profile wallet.

I believe @chrisforrester is currently working on full HD-support for Ether, will you be using the full HD path when this is released?

For the record, my library is at https://github.com/axic/ethereumjs-wallet and it is used in a few places, not only testrpc, however it doesn't impose any path restrictions, in fact it doesn't have any path in the source code as it is only a toolkit to build wallets.

I have used the BIP44 path on Quorum just for the reasoning that should work well with current Bitcoin wallets. It turned out Trezor itself doesn't have any restrictions either. No idea about the others.

@christianlundkvist I understand your point and I think I'm in favour of that reasoning, with the exception of different number for purpose. I simply don't think 0' is a good one. Maybe it would be useful fleshing out a few use cases and how those fit into your scheme.

@axic Yes, I should have been more clear that your library is completely agnostic, I updated the original post with this.

Personally I think I was overthinking things a bit in my HD path reasoning and that it's too soon to start looking for some optimal HD scheme that will cover all cases. Sticking with BIP44 makes sense at this early stage I think since most use cases at this point are about sending/receiving Ether.

It might be early to make a decision, nevertheless can you describe your scheme in depth? It can be a good starting point.

@axic Sure, it was not really that advanced: The main idea is that you can have one seed for different identities or Personas. For persona nr n (at the path n') you have one branch for Ethereum signing keys m/0'/n'/0', one branch for keys to be used for asymmetric encryption m/0'/n'/1', one branch to be used for symmetric encryption m/0'/n'/2'. That's about as far as I got 😄

I was also thinking about separating signing keys used to mainly hold Ether with keys mainly used to interact with smart contracts, so in this case I would probably use something like BIP44 for holding and transacting Ether and the above paths for interacting with contracts.

@christianlundkvist Hi everyone :) Chris here.

I'm deep into the ethereum HD side of things. As Christian mentioned, our existing Jaxx project only uses the root conventional "account" node, which is obviously "wrong", however given the nature of the contract ecosystem, I don't think the bitcoin send + change really applies.

A lot of this is user expectation handling. Obviously privacy for conventional transfers of ether around the network are a good use-case, and for this I'm using the following standard:

m/44'/60'/0' is the "account" node.
m/44'/60'/0'/0/x is the "receive" node.
m/44'/60'/0'/1/y is the "change" node.

If the user receives ether into the current public receive node index, the x index will increase.

Sending ether from the wallet, I'm sorting through all the receive nodes, seeing if any specific node has the balance to cover the transaction, and sending directly as a single TX from that node. any change, gas price differences etc, will be returned to this address.

In the event that this highest-balance node cannot cover the send request cost, I'm appending tx together into a batch. Obviously the tx cost increases simply from the extra gas cost required. If requested, I'm going to build some sort of smarty-pants optimizer to give people some options with this (tx completion time to cost and so on)

To give users their total "spendable" balance, I take a look at the address they're trying to send to, calculate the total gas cost per tx, and subtract those from the user's "spendable" amount.

Any nodes that don't have the ability to send 1 + 21000x50Gwei are below the finite dust limit, and so aren't taken into account. They still have minor utility however as they can be swept completely if they had another deposit into that specific node.

The other option I considered was the complete reverse, always packaging the smallest amount account into an internal "change" node and sending from there. benefits to the user would be that anyone seeing a tx from them would always have a single tx on their list from the "change" node address.

However, this will cost gas to do, and has a delay in the case where a user receives a few tx at nearly the same block, and wants to send out immediately.

So I'm not doing this "proactive" packaging, instead I'm doing a "lazy" methodology. It should work fairly well.

As I need to support previous users, I'm going to apply that original node balance (yes I should have done a bit more thought about that earlier on :D) optionally to the first "receive" node index. Otherwise it'll be kept as a virtual node and used in that "lazy" passthrough system. Our existing pipeline includes transferring funds from an ethereum paper wallet, and this should be a rational analog to that system.

My thoughts on where to go from here re: contract watch addresses, contract ownership accounts, are that people are also going to want token support, so the UI is really the big undetermined factor right now. Since Mist has a basic support for this there's no huge rush, and since this process will form the expectation of how users go about accessing their accounts it's best to do this correctly instead of hacking something together that will have major ramifications in the next year as onboarding continues.

@chrisforrester Thanks for the detailed run-through! So it seems most HD wallets are now using the full BIP44 path. Support for tokens are a good question, I have some thoughts about which paths to use for that, but that's for another EIP. 😃

I was thinking that we could extend the metaphor logically.. we could use
m'/60000'->70000' or the like.

On Sat, Mar 26, 2016 at 2:12 PM, Christian Lundkvist <
notifications@github.com> wrote:

@chrisforrester https://github.com/chrisforrester Thanks for the
detailed run-through! So it seems most HD wallets are now using the full
BIP44 path. Support for tokens are a good question, I have some thoughts
about which paths to use for that, but that's for another EIP. [image:
😃]

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linking SLIP44 (used by jaxx) which proposes constants for different coins.

That said, is there a requirement for the branches to be numbers? seems like using a name would work just as well: "ethereum" or "eth"

BIP32 is the one defining the derivation:

ser32(i): serialize a 32-bit unsigned integer i as a 4-byte sequence, most significant byte first.

and see the usage for ser32.

Additionally the private-to-private derivation (hardened key) has a condition to only accept i ≥ 2^31. If you would use your text encoded as hex, that would always be a hardened derivation.

Ethereum doesn't have change addresses and, realistically, BIP32 is far from ideal for Ethereum. That said, its not a bad bridge until Serenity.

I would like to +1 the idea of only using hardened addresses. This facilitates privacy by default and requires that a developer or user manually do something in order to disable privacy. Moreover, the linkable nature of non-hardened addresses is out-of-scope for ethereum – with bitcoin it makes sense because there are change addresses. With ethereum, and especially with smart contracts, the feature is moot.

I'd like to bring up an interesting use-case.

(caution, my absorption of this is still quite new, someone please correct me if I'm wrong :D )
If I use non-hardened addresses, I can derive all of the public keys from the receive node's extended path.
(caution ended, the stuff below is legit)
Using this, as I sometimes have to batch transactions together, I can create a method of determining if, from any given one address, another address is associated with that batch, as long as they came from the same HD wallet.

In the case where this is desired, a user can send an "audit requestable" hd batch that have some data in them relating to a common nature(# of transactions in a batch, extended public key, username), that will make it really easy for the receiver to be able to hook into our one-name integration and say "yep all these transactions came from dudewiththehatnonotthatdudetheotherdude" and even then, be able to in the UI batch these as a single item.

and even better, if I hook this into the ethereum contract mechanism, I can have a way of batching transactions together to be "counted" as coming from a single source by contracts, and also allow, optionally, easy auditing of bank activity.

Whats then the advantage of using HD wallet here at all? Why then not reusing addresses?

This sending multiple tx from many accounts with dust, doesn't seem smart of efficient to me.

[offtopic]
btw does jaxx now finally provide enough gas? we had a lot of users who can't send from jaxx to kryptokit to a wallet contract..
[/offtopic]

Yeah, and I believe some wallets do this. It is not a great user experience overall but it is better than the user not being able to find their money!

Correct me if wrong, but at least Ledger Live and Metamask have derivation paths m/44'/60'/x'/0 for their first address

For the first address x=0, so both, Ledger and Metamask will use m/44'/60'/0'/0/0. But the following addresses will differ. For example, the second address for Ledger will be derived from m/44'/60'/1'/0/0 while the second address for Metamask will use m/44'/60'/0'/0/1.

How to send from multiple addresses to one.
So not 1 to 1 BUT multi to 1 ?!

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